Skip to content
Secondary Content

Category Archives: History

Nominate A History Hero!

Nominations are now being accepted! 


Utah State History’s annual awards recognize individuals and groups who have made a significant contribution to history, prehistory or historic preservation in the state of Utah. Whether these efforts on behalf of the past are quiet or prominent, they benefit the state’s citizens in tangible and intangible ways. Utah State History therefore invites nominations of persons or organizations who have given extraordinary service or completed outstanding projects.

All projects must be completed within the past two years prior to nomination. Organizational nominations should include description of organization, mission, and programs. Documentation should accompany the form and should include a minimum of two letters of support, photos of project, exhibits, or visual arts, or copies of articles, books, videos, or scripts.

Nominations are due by June 15, 2015. All award applications and documentation will be reviewed by State History staff. Management team will send summary and recommendations to the Board of State History for final selection of award winners. Awards will be presented at the 63rd Annual Utah State History Conference, “Deep Roots, Many Voices: Exploring Utah’s Multicultural Past” to be held October 2, 2015.

You may make nominations in these categories:

Outstanding Contribution Award: For outstanding, long-term contribution to archaeology, preservation or history in Utah. The award may be given to groups or individuals.

Outstanding Achievement Award: For outstanding project or activity in the field of Utah archaeology, preservation or history, or in support of one of Utah’s heritage organizations. May include research, preservation, education, fundraising, community programs, volunteerism, journalism or other activities.

2015 awards nomination form (PDF)
2015 awards nomination form (Word doc)

Return form by June 15, 2015 to:
Utah State History
Awards Nominations
Attn: Lisa Buckmiller
300 S. Rio Grande Street, Salt Lake City, UT 84101

For additional information, please email or call (801) 245-7231


for Best Student Paper on Utah Women’s History

Utah State History sponsors the Papanikolas Award to encourage new scholarly research in the area of Utah women’s history at colleges and universities. The award is named for Helen Z. Papanikolas (1917-2004), a former member of the Utah State Board of History who was most noted for her research and writing on Utah and ethnic history, but also wrote fiction, as well as women’s history.

Submission Guidelines:

  • Papers must address some historical aspect of women’s lives in Utah.
  • The author must be enrolled at a college or university.
  • Papers need not be published.
  • Papers should include original research that includes primary sources. The paper must be footnoted.
  • Papers should not be more than 50 pages long.
  • Papers must be received by May 15, 2015.
  • Please call or E-mail us on May 16, 2015 if you have not heard directly from us that we received your paper.

The winner receives a monetary award as well as being honored at Utah State History’s annual meeting held October 1-2, 2015 in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Submit papers to:
Linda Thatcher
(801) 534-0911

Utah Archaeology and Historic Preservation Month celebrates Utah’s rich archaeological and historical resources with a month of lectures and hands-on learning. Statewide events include:

  • Open house at the South City Campus of Salt Lake Community College with educational activities for kids and adults
  • Annual poster contest
  • Lectures and paper presentations
  • Tours of archaeological and historical sites

Please note: Updates occur regularly, but may take up to 48 hours to appear. Please note: Jumps may land slightly below their marker. We are sorry for the inconvenience.

Do you have an event? Please email and fill out the Archaeology and Historic Preservation Event Form


 Where are you interested in attending events (by County)?

Carbon County

Davis County

Iron County

Morgan County

Salt Lake County

Sanpete County

Utah County






Carbon County


  • Family Day at the Museum
    Date & Time: May 2nd, 2015
    Location: Prehistoric Museum @ Utah State University Eastern, 155 E. Main Street, Price 84501
    For More Information (contact info):
    Sponsors/Organizers: The Prehistoric Museum thanks the Manti-La Sal National Forest and the Castle Valley Archaeological Society for helping to make this event possible
    Admission Cost: Free
    Event Description:Free admission to the museum from 9-5, children’s activities from 10-2.


Davis County

Syracuse/Antelope Island State Park

  • Junior Ranger program: What did the Native American inhabitants of Antelope Island Eat? 
    Date & Time: May 2, at 1pm
    Location: Fielding Garr Ranch/Antelope Island State Park
    For More Information (contact info): Clay Shelley,
    Sponsors/Organizers: Antelope Island State Park
    Admission Cost: $10 per vehicle park entrance fee
    Event Description:  Come and join us for a fun filled experience learning about how Antelope Island’s Native peoples gathered food at 1:00pm at the historic Fielding Garr Ranch on Antelope Island State Park. Though this informative Junior Ranger program is geared for ages 6-12 people of all ages are welcome. For more information call (801) 649-5742. or (


Cedar City

  • Archaeology Day at Frontier Homestead State Park
    Date & Time: May 2, 10am to 3pm
    Location: Frontier Homestead State Park, Cedar City, UT
    For More Information (contact info): Todd Prince,, (435)586-9290 or Samantha Kirkley,, (801) 318-9458
    Sponsors/Organizers: Frontier Homestead State Park
    Admission Cost: $1.50 per person
    Event Description:Frontier Homestead State Park welcomes archeologists young and old and their families to participate in its annual Archaeology Day on Saturday, May 2, 2015. Visitors will have the opportunity to participate in activities involving Native American games, history, crafts and skills, and visit with a variety of demonstrators. Bring your artifacts from home and “Ask an Archaeologist” to give you more information.  Boy Scouts can receive their Indian Lore merit badge. Archeology Day will take place from the hours of 10:00 a.m. – 3:00 p.m. Cost per person is $1.50 per individual. (


Morgan County

Morgan/East Canyon State Park

  • History Lecture Series
    Date & Time: May 30th,  6-7pm
    Location: East Canyon State Park, North Pavilion
    For More Information (contact info): Chris Haramoto,
    Sponsors/Organizers: East Canyon State Park
    Admission Cost: TBD
    Event Description: Historic trails expert and historian Gar Elison will discuss the Hensley Account and the northern route that became the Salt Lake Cutoff in the 1800s. (


Salt Lake County

Salt Lake City

  • Archaeology and Preservation Month Open House
    Date & Time: May 2nd, 2015, Noon to 3pm
    Location: Salt Lake Community College, South City Campus 
    For More Information (contact info):
    Sponsors/Organizers: Utah Division of State History, and others TBD
    Admission Cost: Free
    Event Description:Come down and enjoy a variety of archaeological and historic preservation activities for kids and adults.




  • Scandinavian Heritage Festival
    Date & Time: Friday and Saturday, May 22-23 (Memorial Day Weekend)
    Location: Center Street in Ephraim 
    For More Information (contact info): Greg Boothe,
    Sponsors/Organizers: Ephraim City
    Admission Cost: Free
    Event Description:Celebrating the Scandinavian Heritage of ancestors that settled Sanpete County..



Spanish Fork

  • History Hunter at DUP Museum
    Date & Time: Memorial Day to Labor Day, Monday 10:30 – 1:30 and Saturday 1  – 4.
    Location: Spanish Fork DUP Museum, 398 N. Main 
    For More Information (contact info): Lana Creer-Harris Director, (801)360-0117 
    Sponsors/Organizers: South Center Company, Daughters Utah Pioneers Museum
    Admission Cost: Free
    Event Description:  Daughters of Utah Pioneers Museum in cooperation with Play Unplugged will sponsor a History Hunter activity for children. Play Unplugged is a program dedicated to getting children out of the house and involved in their community. Children receive a free Play Unplugged lanyard and activity book at school. They choose activities from the book and after completing them receive badges to hang on the lanyard. DUP museum docents will hand out the History Hunter checklists and review them for accuracy and completion and award the child their History Hunter badge.Children are invited to: “Hunt down artifacts at the Daughters of Utah Pioneers Museum: pick up a check list and seek the antiques on it. Return completed checklist with correct answers and receive your Brag Badge.” (


Gallery of Female Imagery in Advertisements

In Kathryn McKay’s “The Chocolate Dippers’ Strike of 1910,” published in the winter 2015 Utah Historical Quarterly, readers see candy boxes and store front windows depicting women and girls dressed in fashionable clothing—all in an attempt to sell chocolate manufactured by the J. G. McDonald Company. These advertisements reflect the emergence of a highly consumptive society and the homogenization of mass culture that sought to cater to female consumers—many of whom had recently entered the work force as wage laborers—and to use female images to sell clothes, appliances, and other products. The following is a sampling of photos at the Utah State Historical Society that represent women and gender in advertisements during the first half of the twentieth century.




Auerbach & Bro. originated with Samuel H. Auerbach, who shortly after arriving in Salt Lake City in 1859 set up “The People’s Store” on Main Street. Eventually, after several relocations, the company settled down in a building on State and Broadway.


Auerbach Bros., Sept. 25, 1908

Auerbach Bros. storefront window display, September 25, 1908




Arthur Frank established a clothing store at Midvale, one of a number of well-established Jewish stores and businesses in Utah in the early twentieth century.



Bonnie Lee Shoppe, located at 53 East and 300 South in Salt Lake City.



Utah Power & Light, established in 1912 as a subsidiary of a larger holding company in New York, consolidated a number of small companies to become the largest electric power provider in Utah. Utah Power & Light worked to interconnect all its companies into an integrated system. By the ?, when these advertisements appeared, electric power was widely available to homes and businesses along the Wasatch Front and elsewhere throughout the state. In advertisements often depicting domestic scenes and the time-saving use of household appliances, the company sought to “promote the sale of electricity,” in the words of the historian John S. McCormick. (“The Beginning of Modern Electric Power Service in Utah, 1912–22,” Utah Historical Quarterly 56 [Winter 1988]: 5–22.)


Utah Power & Light Company advertisement



An advertisement in the Utah Farmer journal, depicting two men and a “farmer’s wife” listening to a political candidate through the medium of radio. By 1925, when this ad appeared, women had finally won the vote.



Audio Recording: “Sounds of the Cathedral”


Gary Topping’s interview with Gregory Glenn, published in winter 2015 Utah Historical Quarterly, highlights the founding of the Madeleine Choir School. This school has offered academic and music instruction to children since 1996. Choristers from the school are also members of the Choir of the Cathedral of the Madeleine, which has produced good music for many years.

The Archives of the Catholic Church in Utah recently donated to the Utah Division of State History’s research library a copy of “Sounds of the Cathedral (featuring the Cathedral Choir),” a vinyl LP released in 1960 featuring religious songs of the Choir of the Cathedral. Thanks to the work of Doug Misner of the Utah Division of State History and Tony Castro of the Utah State Archives, we have a digital recording of the album for your enjoyment.


UHQ Interviews: Utah Historiography

Conversation with Gary Topping on Utah Historiography

How have Utah historians plied ttopping-utah-historiographyheir craft over the years? Why don’t historians agree about the past and its meaning? Are historians—and the books they write—products of their times? We met with Gary Topping, author of Utah Historians and the Reconstruction of Western History, among other works, to begin to answer some of these questions. This free-ranging conversation introduces us to the work of Utah historians over the years, beginning with Bancroft and continuing through modern practitioners. Topping entertains us, in a way perhaps only he can, with his reflections on the historian’s quest to tell the story of Utah’s past. We make available the audio and a transcript of the conversation.




S. George Ellsworth: Interview with Robert Parson

EllsworthIn a visit to Utah State University, where Ellsworth taught for many years, we sat down with Robert Parson to discuss Ellsworth and his place among Utah historians. Parson is the author of “Neither Poet nor Prophet: S. George Ellsworth and the History of Utah,” published in the winter 2015 UHQ. Readers will benefit from Parson’s deep knowledge of Ellsworth’s life and his approach to history. Here we present the text of our conversation.






Accompanying Documents

Ellsworth, “Utah History: Retrospect and Prospect,” Utah Historical Quarterly (Winter 1972).

  • Our conversations with Topping and Parson reference this article, which Ellsworth wrote at the invitation of UHQ editors to assess the state of the field. (After clicking the link above, be sure to select the title of the article in the left-column menu.)

Ellsworth to Dr. Wynne Thorne, 1956, 1961.

  • These letters, located in the S. George Ellsworth Papers at the Utah State University, describe Ellsworth’s progress of his work on a textbook for grade students on Utah history—a project that took him fifteen years to bring to publication.

Excerpt from the diary of Leonard Arrington

  • Located in the Leonard J. Arrington Papers at USU, this diary entry details the founding of the Western Historical Quarterly. Arrington and Ellsworth served as editor and managing editor, respectively.

Ellsworth memorium.

  • At Ellsworth’s passing in December 1997, his longtime associate and friend Everett Cooley remarked that there “has been no greater devotion to history than that displayed by the life of S. George Ellsworth.”

Gallery of Charcoal Kilns

Text and Photos by Douglas H. Page Jr.

While charcoal production technology is estimated to be anywhere from 6,000 to 8,000 years old, charcoal produced in “beehive” shaped kilns is a nineteenth-century invention. The parabolic dome design was introduced in 1868 by James C. Cameron in Michigan and quickly became the industry standard. Most Utah kiln sets are of the parabolic dome design. A few sets are the more simple conical design. Both designs are often referred to as “beehive” kilns.

The earliest record of charcoal kiln construction in Utah is at Rush Lake in Tooele County in 1869, while the latest construction of a kiln set in Utah—in Carbon County’s Spring Glen—dates to 1890. Many charcoal kilns continued to produce charcoal into the early twentieth century until the use of charcoal was replaced with coal. Here former forester Doug Page provides photos and captions of kiln sites around the state (and one in Wyoming).

Gold Hill

Gold Hill

On the north end of the Deep Creek Mountains at Gold Hill were once two charcoal kilns with stone bases and ceramic tops. These kilns were unique to Utah due to the ceramic construction material. Only a few kilns anywhere in the United States were constructed using ceramic materials. Few specifics are known about these, except that they were in operation in the 1890s, presumably producing charcoal for the smelter at Gold Hill. This photo, taken by Nell Murbarger and published in her article “Charcoal: The West’s Forgotten Industry” in the June 1956 edition of Desert Magazine, shows the tops still largely intact. Today only one kiln has any ceramic remaining and most of the stone bases of both kilns are gone. Wood harvested for these kilns would have been pinyon pine and juniper.


interior of north kiln

The Gold Hill kilns are located on State Trust Land several hundred feet northwest of the main intersection in the town of Gold Hill. This photo was taken in September 2013 and shows a close-up of the interior of the more intact kiln. The ceramic top and the stone base can be seen. There is also a small lime kiln on the site just downhill (north) of the charcoal kilns.


American Fork Canyon

Forest City

Forest City was the site of fifteen of the twenty-five charcoal kilns built in American Fork Canyon. It was located on U.S. Forest Service land, at the junction of American Fork and Shaffer Fork, 3.5 miles northeast of Tibble Fork Reservoir (where the other ten kilns were located) and eleven miles northeast of the communities of Alpine and Highland. The twenty-five kilns operated from 1872 to 1877, supplying charcoal to the American Fork Canyon and Salt Lake Valley smelters. All that is left now are fifteen piles of rubble at the Forest City site. The remains are quite difficult to see now because of lush forest vegetation. Wood harvested for the kilns would have been Douglas-fir, aspen, spruce, and subalpine fir. Photo taken June 2013.


Spanish Fork Canyon


M&M ca1890-2014 (2)

This paired photo set shows the location of the McCoy and McAllister (M&M) charcoal kilns (Spanish Fork Canyon) in about 1890 (top) and in 2013 (bottom). No evidence remains today of the ten kilns that once occupied this site. A four-lane highway now runs where the kilns once sat. The 1890 photo has some wonderful detail. Workers can be seen in various locations around the nine standing kilns and the one collapsed kiln. The kiln doors are all sealed with props holding the doors shut. What appears to be a bucket of whitewash sits on the rear loading ramp between kilns four and five (counting from the left). Whitewash was used to seal small cracks in the kilns before firing, thus allowing better control of the burn rate. These kilns appear to have had the exterior whitewashed, where at other sites around the state, the interiors were treated. Behind the stacks of wood are the outlines of men working at the site. Photo credits: ca. 1890 by George Edward Anderson; 2013 by Douglas H. Page Jr.



Piedmont, Wyoming

Piedmont, Wyo

Piedmont, Wyoming, was the site of five charcoal kilns built in 1869 and operated until the early twentieth century. The Piedmont site is now maintained and interpreted by Wyoming State Parks and Cultural Resources. The kilns produced charcoal for Salt Lake City smelters from wood harvested from Utah’s Uinta Mountains. Wood harvested for the kilns would have been lodgepole pine, aspen, spruce, and fir. Wood was delivered to the kilns via sled in winter and, undoubtedly, via rail from Hilliard some 11.5 miles southwest of Piedmont. The thirty-six-mile long Hilliard Flume delivered wood from the mountains for railroad ties and for charcoal production to twenty-nine kilns at Hilliard. It is located in Piedmont—now a ghost town—along the original line of the Union Pacific Railroad (now County Road 173), eighteen miles east-southeast of Evanston (twenty-six driving miles). Piedmont is famous for delaying the train carrying Thomas Durant (vice president of the Union Pacific) to the Golden Spike ceremony until workers received their back-pay from the railroad. The ceremony was scheduled for May 7, 1869, but took place on May 10, 1869, due to the delay. Photo taken April 2013.





The photos that follow are of a number of kiln sets that all supplied charcoal to the Frisco Smelter. We know of eleven sets of kilns (with forty-one kilns) associated with the smelter. There were many more pit kiln sites, but the location is known for only some. The eleven kiln sets are scattered throughout the San Francisco Mountains, primarily on the east side, with two sites located on the east side of the Wah Wah Mountains. Development of the Frisco charcoal industry began in 1877 shortly after discovery of silver at Frisco, and operations continued until 1885, ending after the Horn Silver Mine collapsed and the smelter closed. Each set of kilns was independently owned and operated, with the exception of the five kilns at Frisco that were owned and operated by the mining company.

Kiln sets were spaced far enough apart so that conflicts between operators were minimized. Wood harvest was typically done within an irregular one-mile radius of the kiln site, depending on topography, accessibility, and availability. Wood harvested for the Frisco Smelter was pinyon pine and juniper. Some ponderosa pine and Douglas-fir were also harvested from the local area, used primarily for buildings and structural material.


The five Frisco Kilns are located on private land at the old Frisco town site just north of Highway 21, about fourteen miles northwest of Milford. These kilns are the best-known of the eleven “Frisco” charcoal kiln sets. The Frisco Smelter site is adjacent, but little is left of it. Judging by the residue on the inside of these kilns, they may have been used for both charcoal production and later for producing coke (a product of coal) when coal became available. The Daughters of the Utah Pioneers maintain a 1961 interpretive sign containing a short history of Frisco along Highway 21, within view of the kilns. Photo taken March, 2013.


Carbonate Gulch

Carbonate Gulch Kilns, viewed from the north-northeast, February 2014. Built primarily to supply charcoal for the smelter at Frisco (2.1 miles to the south-southwest), two pairs of kilns can be found on BLM land in Carbonate Gulch. The larger pair can be clearly seen in the sagebrush opening; the smaller pair are somewhat hidden some 260 feet to the right (northwest) of the larger and against a small hill in a side drainage. Kilns were often built against hillsides to facilitate loading through the upper doorway, avoiding the need for large ramps. On this site, cutting went one mile west but only 0.1 miles to the east. Slope and unavailability of suitable wood limited the eastern wood harvest and transport. Old harvest roads can still be found in the area.


South larger kiln doorway

Carbonate Gulch Kilns, July 2013. Close-up of the front doorway of one of the larger pair. The kilns were built primarily out of native stone and the doorways of the larger pair were lined with brick. The smoother surface of the brick would have made it easier to seal the door during combustion.


pit kiln

The Carbonate West site is in the head of a small un-named drainage 1.4 miles southeast of the Carbonate Gulch kilns and 1.2 miles northeast of the Frisco kilns. Charcoal from this site would have gone to the Frisco smelter. The site contains the foundations of two kilns, an unidentified straight stone wall/trench with creosote char, and three pit kiln sites. This photo shows one of the pit kiln sites in July 2013. Pit kilns are sometimes associated with constructed charcoal kilns. While they did not produce as high a quality of charcoal, they could be constructed quickly, which may have allowed for the kiln operators to rapidly respond to increased demand for charcoal. The Carbonate West site is not mapped on current USGS topographic maps, unlike most Frisco kiln locations that are.


Copper Gulch

Copper Gulch contains two sets of kilns that were part of the Frisco kilns, supplying charcoal to the smelter at Frisco. Both are on privately owned land behind a locked gate. These are the only known kiln sets on the west slopes of the San Francisco Mountains. This August 2013 photo is of the interior of the one intact kiln and shows the whitewash coating that was being applied over the creosote residue prior to the next burn. That burn never occurred. What appears to be a shadow on the top is not: it is where whitewash had not been applied. Whitewash had been applied below five feet but not yet applied above that. Whitewash coating was used to seal small cracks in the walls so that the rate of burn could be controlled. The Copper Gulch kilns are 2.6 miles northwest of Frisco and 2.1 miles west of Carbonate Gulch. Unlike most Frisco kiln locations that are identified on current USGS topographic maps, the kilns in Copper Gulch are not mapped.


Three Kilns Spring

Three kilns were constructed on a small piece of private land at Three Kilns Spring 8.3 miles northeast of Frisco. Charcoal from this site went primarily to the Frisco smelter. The kilns are located on the eastern edge of the pinyon-juniper woodland, thus wood harvest activities would have been primarily to the north, west, and south of the site. The County Line site, with four kilns, is located 2.25 miles to the west-northwest, and the Sawmill North (Seven Kilns) site is located three miles to the southwest. It is likely that pit kiln sites may be found in between these sites. Photo was taken in September 2011.


Three Kilns Spring

Close-up of one of the kilns at Three Kilns Spring showing both the front and rear doorways. These kilns were built of native stone. After the charcoal production era, one of the kilns was used as a line-shack for livestock and was fitted with a wooden roof and wooden door. Photo was taken in September 2011.


Sawmill North (7 Kilns)

Sawmill North is the best-preserved kiln site in Utah and the most intact of the eleven Frisco kiln sites, with six of the seven kilns virtually intact. The BLM is formulating plans to stabilize and interpret the site. It appears that the top of third kiln, pictured, collapsed during its last use as the stones fell outward and the debris inside consists primarily of a large pile of wood ash with some charcoal and partially burned wood. The site also has the foundations of several stone structures, a lime kiln, and a water well. It is located on BLM land in an unnamed canyon about one mile north of Sawmill Canyon and 5.9 miles northeast of Frisco. Pit kiln sites have been located north, east, and south of this site, all approximately one mile from the site. Photo taken March 2012; the Mineral Mountains, east of Milford, can be seen in the background.


Sawmill North (7 Kilns)

Looking upward inside one of the kilns at the Sawmill North site it can be seen that the top vent was left sealed after the last use. The loosely stacked rocks at the top would have been removed during loading and firing operations then replaced during burning to control the burn. Photo taken March 2012.


Lamerdorf Canyon

The Lamerdorf Canyon site is the most distant of the Frisco kiln sets and is located on BLM land in the Wah Wah Mountains, 18.5 miles to the southwest of Frisco. (Using today’s roads the driving distance is twenty-five miles to the smelter.) This interior photo shows the front door and two rows of vents. The door would have been sealed for firing the load and the vents were used to regulate the burn. Pieces of wood, rock, or brick might have been wedged into the vents to dampen the fire and prevent the burn from becoming too hot. If the fire became too hot, only worthless ash would have been produced instead of charcoal. Photo taken March 2012.



lime kiln

Remains of a lime kiln at the Lamerdorf Canyon site. This lime kiln was approximately eight feet in diameter and eight feet high (inside) and was used to produce lime for mortar used for construction and maintenance of the charcoal kilns. It is common to find a lime kiln at charcoal kiln sites. The glazed coating is characteristic of lime kilns and the color is given by trace minerals in the limestone used, in this case copper. Photo taken March 2012.



Kiln Spring

Kiln Spring site is located on a small parcel of private land in the Wah Wah Mountains, 14.5 miles southwest of Frisco and 6.5 miles north-northeast of the Lamerdorf Canyon site. There were five, small conical-shaped kilns built at Kiln Spring. The kilns here were generally smaller and the construction method was not as refined as at other Frisco kiln sets where Cameron’s parabolic dome design was used. Charcoal went to the Frisco smelter. The San Francisco Mountains (location of nine of the eleven Frisco kiln sets) can be seen in the background. Photo taken April 2012.














Utah Historical Quarterly Current Issue

Volume 83, Number 1 (Winter Issue):

Utah’s history is more diverse than you think! Check out the Winter 2015 issue of the Utah Historical Quarterly to learn more about where Utah has been, and how we’ve come to where we are today. Join the Historical Society for your own copy .

Each issue of the Utah Historical Quarterly is accompanied with rich web supplements that introduce readers to sources, photos, interviews, and other engaging material. These “extras” are located at

WEB EXTRAS: See here 



Neither Poet nor Prophet: S. George Ellsworth and the History of Utah
By Robert E. Parson

Charcoal and Its Role in Utah Mining History
By Douglas H. Page Jr., Sarah E. Page, Thomas J. Straka, and Nathan D. Thomas

The Chocolate Dippers’ Strike of 1910
By Kathryn L. MacKay

Tooele, Touch Typing, and the Catholic Saint Marguerite-Marie Alacoque
By Emma Louise Penrod

Transformation of the Cathedral: An Interview with Gregory Glenn
By Gary Topping

Charcoal burners, “chocolate girls,” Catholic priests, and a champion typist: these are a few of the characters who populate this issue of UtahHistorical Quarterly. That contemporary historians consider such individuals worthy of study stems, in part, from the new social history of the 1960s and beyond. This school of thought challenged the “consensus” history that had emphasized common American values and character over ethnic, racial, and class distinctions. In the words of the historian Alice Kessler-Harris, the new social history documented “social relationships, social structure, everyday life, private life, social solidarities, social conflicts, social classes, and social groups.”[1] In short, over the years, it has provided a more complete view of the past.

S. George Ellsworth, the subject of our first article, was a leading practitioner of this “new” history. Ellsworth obtained graduate training under Herbert Eugene Bolton at the University of California– Berkeley and spent his entire career at Utah State University. A bibliophile, he made important contributions to bolstering USU’s collection of what he called Utahnalia. Unlike the better-known Leonard Arrington, with whom he shared an intimate but at times strained relationship, Ellsworth was not a prolific scholar. Detailed and thoughtful, he labored fifteen years on Utah’s Heritage, a seventh-grade history textbook. Robert Parson guides readers in an intimate introduction to a master teacher and gifted, if at time conflicted, scholar who merits broader recognition for his contributions to Utah history. The other articles in this issue reflect Ellsworth’s dedication to telling lesser-known stories.

With our second article, a team of foresters and archaeologists have set out to remind Utahns of the place of charcoal in their state’s mining history. For many reasons, charcoal was a preferred source of heat in smelting; it was, therefore, critical to the mining industry. From whence, then, did smelters obtain the charcoal they needed to operate? The authors of this article have answered this question by documenting the remains of charcoal production sites throughout the state, as well as sites in Colorado and Wyoming associated with Utah mining. They are careful, too, to remind readers of the devastation caused by the charcoal industry: in the lives of the poorly paid, poorly housed charcoal burners; for the Native Americans whose food source the industry decimated; and, not least, in the forests altered by heavy, careless logging.

The back cover of this issue features a commercial photograph of chocolate boxes from the J. G. McDonald Company. The message presented by these boxes is overwhelmingly one of beauty, elegance, and, above all, femininity. As our third article establishes, such a message belied the realities of life for the young women who worked at McDonald’s confectionery. In 1910, fourteen of those women formed a “Chocolate Dippers’ Union” and struck for higher wages. These women—all of whom were younger than twenty-five and all of whom lost their jobs—acted bravely and with few precedents close at hand. Though only the names of the Chocolate Dippers’ Union’s officers survive, that fragment of history provides a fascinating glimpse into their world: all five of the officers came from the homes of working-class English immigrants, converts to Mormonism.

The last two pieces in this issue remind us of Utah’s deep Catholic roots. Emma Louise Penrod probes into the naming of Tooele’s Saint Marguerite Catholic Church, skeptical that a church in a Utah town with almost no French roots derived its name from the French Saint Marguerite-Marie Alacoque. She was right. The Marguerite in question was in fact a young Irish American girl, the niece of Frank McGurrin—a celebrated typist who helped popularize the QWERTY keyboard and nurtured the Catholic Church in Tooele. The article segues into a discussion of ethnicity and religion in small mining towns, like those close to Tooele, and the odd connection of the Catholic parish to the origins of modern touch typing. The final piece features a delightful conversation between the historian Gary Topping and Gregory Glenn, the founder and director of the Madeleine Choir School in Salt Lake City.

[1] Alice Kessler-Harris, “Social History,” in The New American History, ed. Eric Foner (Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1997), 232.


David M. Wrobel, Global West, American Frontier: Travel, Empire, and Exceptionalism from Manifest Destiny to the Great Depression. Reviewed by Michael Homer

Claudine Chalmers, Chronicling the West for Harper’s: Coast to Coast with Frenzeny and Tavernier in 1873–1874. Reviewed by Noel A. Carmack

Samuel Holiday and Robert S. McPherson, Under the Eagle: Samuel Holiday, Navajo Code Talker. Reviewed by Robert S. Voyles

Roger L. Nichols, Warrior Nations: The United States and Indian Peoples. Reviewed by Patricia Ann Owens

Norman Rosenblatt, Dance with the Bear: The Joe Rosenblatt Story. Reviewed by Allan Kent Powell

Merina Smith, Revelation, Resistance, and Mormon Polygamy: The Introduction and Implementation of the Principle, 1830–1853. Reviewed by Todd M. Compton


Mike Mackey, Protecting Wyoming’s Share: Frank Emerson and the Colorado River Compact

Aaron McArthur, St. Thomas, Nevada: A History Uncovered

Evelyn I. Funda, Weeds: A Farm Daughter’s Lament

Board of State History Meeting Agenda

Thursday, January 15, 2015

Rio Grande Depot, Board Room, 300 South Rio Grande Street, Salt Lake City, UT

TIME:  Noon - working lunch for Board members, hosted by State History

12:15 p.m. – WELCOME – Greg Thompson


12:20 p.m.        Oct 16 2014 Board Retreat Minutes Draft – Greg Thompson

12:25 p.m.        Board of State History Committees – Kevin Fayles

12:35 p.m.        Overview of Meetings for the Utah State Board of History – Kevin Fayles

12:45 p.m.         NRHP Board PrimerReview Board Procedure Update – Cory Jensen

1:00 p.m.          National Register of Historic Places Nominations for Review and Approval – Cory Jensen
1) Joseph Hill Cabin
2) Amundsen House
3) Bennion Flour Mill
4) Boyce-Newman House
5) SLC 29th Ward LDS Meetinghouse
6) Western Macaroni Co. Factory
7) Weber River RR Bridge

​1:30 p.m.          BREAK & Group Photo Retake – Kevin Fayles


1:45 p.m.          How do we widen community and legislative support of State History? – Dina Blaes

2:05 p.m.          Board member turnover 2015 – Greg Thompson
submit nominations to the Governor’s Office at

2:15 p.m.          Budget Report – Kevin Fayles

2:25 p.m.          Request for Review by Committee
1) Fellows and Honorary Members Process – Brad Westwood, Jed Rogers
2) Publication Awards AND Outstanding Achievement and Contribution Awards – Brad Westwood and Holly George

​2:35 p.m.          October – December 2014 Program Accomplishments for State History – Brad Westwood

3:00 p.m.          Utah Committee on Geographic Names – Brad Westwood, Arie Leeflang

3:05 p.m.          Markers and Monuments Database AND Circleville Massacre – Jed Rogers, Brad Westwood

3:15 p.m.          Revisit Committee Member Assignments – Kevin Fayles

3:20 p.m.          Recognition of Partnership with the LDS Church and Utah Territorial Papers and the Salt Lake Telegram Newspapers Projects – Brad Westwood, Steve Olsen

3:25 p.m.          Utah History Day at the Legislature (Jan. 30) and 2015 Capitol Hill Preservation Advocacy Week – Brad Westwood


NEXT MEETING:  April 16, 2015, 12:00 pm – 3:00 p.m. 


S. George Ellsworth: Interview with Robert Parson

Editors’ Note: The following is a transcript of our interview with Bob Parson, author of the anchor article in the fall 2015 Utah Historical Quarterly. The conversation elaborates on themes addressed in the article, in particular Ellsworth’s career and legacy.

Jedediah Rogers: Welcome to another edition of the Utah Historical Quarterly author’s conversations. My name is Jedediah Rogers. I am one of the managing editors of the Utah Historical Quarterly and I’m really pleased today to be joined by Robert Parson. He is University Archivist at Utah State University. His most recent piece of scholarship is published in the winter 2015 issue of the Quarterly entitled “Neither Poet nor Prophet: S. George Ellsworth and the History of Utah.” And today I’m sitting down with Robert in Special Collections at Utah State University, and we just want to have a conversation about Ellsworth and his place among Utah historians. First I’d like to hear a little bit about you and your career, and then maybe talk to us about how you got started on this particular research project.

Robert Parson: Okay, thank you, Jed. Call me Bob.Everybody does. Well, I became interested in Ellsworth mostly from the standpoint of the history of this institution and as university archivist.That’s really what my research interests are and my emphasis is, and Ellsworth played a very key role in a lot of things that developed at this institution from 1954 when he got here as a junior faculty member in history until his retirement in, I think, about 1983 or ’84. And he was an integral part of not just the history department but of the library.And so as I research more about his place within that mix I’ve come to really appreciate his contribution building collections—to not necessarily use those collections for his own purposes but to build collections for the benefit of students who would study Utah history.

JR: So, if we may, why don’t we start by characterizing Ellsworth’s legacy as a Utah historian?Where does he fit in among his contemporaries, historians before and since?And maybe begin with this.Why is Ellsworth not very well known as a Utah historian even among historians but certainly among the general public?

RP: Well he did not publish very much in comparison to a lot of other historians whose major contribution was research and writing.I think George’s major publications took place after his retirement. There were things that he worked on for thirty years, but he was a perfectionist and he was a very busy man.He taught a lot of classes.So the consequence I think was he was not as well known as his contemporaries.The obvious one here is Leonard Arrington who wrote dozens and dozens of articles and collaborative books. George was not a collaborator.So I think that’s one reason why he is not as well known. I think he’s very well respected amongst his peers of that time period.He was very well respected.

JR: What would you say is his major legacy or contribution to our state’s history?

RP: Well I think he’s one of those individuals that came along at about the same time period. I won’t say all of them, but a lot of them came out of that Berkeley tradition and were trained at Berkeley. I’m thinking of Everett Cooley for one, George Ellsworth, Richard Poll. History departments by and large at that time were primarily teaching departments.And Ellsworth began at a time at this institution when history departments began to look more into research. The institution began to put modest sums of money into research, into the social sciences and humanities.Before that time at this institution it was a land grant institution and all of the research dollars went towards agriculture. So they had a lot of research funds coming into experiment stations and some were for federal collaborative projects. There was really no money that went into to do social science research and  Ellsworth and Arrington really got that rolling in the 1950s and convinced the institution to begin to put research dollars in. That’s where Ellsworth’s original idea for the book Utah’s Heritage comes from—that modest sum of money that the institution put in to help him with [the textbook]. And so I think that’s really kind of the beginning of where history faculty get a lot of opportunity to do something more than just teach.

The other contribution that he made was in collections.He brought a lot of collections into this library.He begins to go out and to gather things, a lot of microfilm projects and things like that, that really were the beginnings of what we would call today Special Collections. The same thing might could be said about Everett Cooley.He did the same thing at the Historical Society first, but later at the University of Utah.

JR: Well I think we want to touch on each of those contributions in our short conversation.Why don’t we start with Ellsworth’s affinity for bibliography or collecting materials?And my understanding is that he developed a real interest in this perhaps during his graduate student days at Berkeley where he was diving into some of the collections that they had and some of the rich collections that Bancroft had collected in the late nineteenth century pertaining to Utah. Maybe talk to us a little bit about his time at Berkeley and then what skillset he brought to Utah State University and how he began to build up the collections at this institution.

RP: Well his mantra was “no documents, no history.”And I presume that when he got to Berkeley he saw a wealth of primary sources that he really never encountered before and came to understand that a lot of those had not been mined very deeply. Bancroft’s collections were put together to do the book in the 1890s and, of course, that’s the topic of a couple of UHQ articles that [Ellsworth] wrote. And beyond that his affinity for bibliography I think goes to teaching.He puts things together.You make them known. You make them accessible and then you have the opportunity for students to look at these things. At this institution that’s really the beginning of most of the graduate work in history is from Ellsworth’s writing given one or two but Ellsworth chaired a lot of graduate students and directed students towards Utah topics. There are a lot of them that he had gathered from Bancroft and from sources.

JR: What would you say are some of the richest, most interesting materials that he gathered there and are now housed in special collections?

RP: Well, interestingly a lot of those things still haven’t been mined very deeply, but from my perspective the local history stuff that he gathered during the publication of the old History of the Valley book is absolutely incredible. Unfortunately, it’s in a medium now that is not very popular—microfilm.

JR: Microfilm.

RP: Right.And it was a microfilm project that was done in house, so some of it is not that well done.So it makes it difficult to use the other things that are fairly widely available now or things that he convinced the institution to purchase from the Library of Congress or from the National Archives. And I’m always amazed to look at those records that still are not looked at very deeply because they’re hard.It’s difficult research work to look through hours and hours of microfilm, but they’re some of the richest sources.That’s not to discount sources in Ellsworth’s collection itself that came in in the late 1990s.There’s a lot of great stuff there.

JR: In your article in the UHQ, you have a delightful little section where you talk about visiting his second home where much of his material would be housed and noticing that the work area looked chaotic with piles of papers and bundles of notecards everywhere.

RP: Not unlike this table right here.

JR: Not unlike this.Maybe that’s standard for most archivists and historians.

RP: Yeah, yeah.You know, I recognized what was going on at that table immediately when I walked in.And historians’ offices are not particularly tidy most of the time, because they’ve got a lot of things that they’re working on.

JR: You write that he rarely threw anything away.No document was dispensable, no scrap or bit of information was unessential.Both the weighty and the trivial, the eminent and ephemeral—all had significance in documenting the past.” Talk to us about that. Why do you think that was? Was that just a quirk of his personality that he kept every little scrap of information that came his way, or does that reveal his broader approach to doing history?

RP: I think it reveals his bent toward archives. That’s the thing we struggle with the most in the profession—the weeding process.What do you discard?You could have rough guidelines, but it comes down to really the instinct and just making a judgment call and sometimes that judgment call is wrong. You might think something is not worth the effort to keep and come to find out later on that it was.Ellsworth I think skirted that problem by simply not throwing anything away. And it’s in hindsight now the stuff that he kept from committee meetings and from little clubs and things that he was involved with on campus is absolute gold because nobody keeps that kind of stuff. It’s so ordinary, but he did.He kept it all and so the documents are a little niche of the university’s history that otherwise would be lost. So I’m glad he did keep all that stuff.But I think what it does say is that he had an appreciation for documents—and not just how he might use those documents, but how the documents would pass on for somebody else’s interest or for the institution’s necessity to maintain its memory.

JR: Did he also have a role in organizing the materials that he gathered and collected, or did he simply turn them over to other archivists like you?

RP: Well, like I said at the beginning I did not know George until towards the end of his life.I wish I would have.I wish I would have had classes from him.By the time he finally decided to relinquish these materials, he was probably beyond the point of being able to organize them himself. They were well organized to begin with.Now if George would have turned these over ten or fifteen years before, he would have probably been the one that organized his collection.Whether he would have ever got it done in the ten or fifteen years he had left in life is another story. But he was very focused on the arrangement, the organization, and he did have a lot of suggestions as we took stuff out of his second home and brought it up here.He definitely had some suggestions as to how he wanted things organized.

JR: Yeah.Well speaking of ten or fifteen years, his major contribution or one of his major contributions was writing the seventh-grade history of Utah textbook.But for whatever reason—and maybe you can talk to us a little bit about that—it took him so long to complete this project. You mentioned earlier that above all he was a teacher, and so it seems natural that he would write an official school textbook in Utah history. But maybe talk to us a little bit about how he came to that project and why it took him so long to write.

RP: Well his intention was to write [a high school] freshman history text and his hope was to simultaneously write a text that could be used for college level—in other words, dumb it down just enough for ninth graders.And the curriculum committee made the decision to keep Utah history in the seventh grade.That was, I think, a huge blow to his plans, because seventh graders were simply not able to—he couldn’t take the text he had envisioned as a college text and simplify that down to the level of a seventh grader.He found it excruciatingly hard. And so over the years that he worked on that, I think what Ellsworth finally decided was to start to just write a book for seventh-grade level students, and not to try to write the college-level text simultaneously. . . . He was methodical and some may say plodding in his writing, and so it took him a long time to finish it.

JR: Yeah that textbook was published in 1972.Is that correct?

RP: Yes. Interestingly one of the comments that a lot of the teachers made about Utah’s Heritage was that it was still over the head of most seventh graders. They all loved the book, its layout and everything. They hated the binding because it fell apart. But a lot of them felt thought it was still too advanced for seventh graders.

JR: I’ve heard that and I heard that a slightly revised edition published in the mid-1980s was a simplified version of the original ’72 text. Is that correct?

RP: I think they tried to simplify it as much as they could, but he was always very responsive to comments and teachers and went out of his way both he and his publisher to have the books evaluated by social studies teachers.

JR: Can you comment at all on how Ellsworth’s school text compares to other textbooks?

RP: I’m not too familiar with them.I know Ellsworth did not think that they were adequate and so that was his pitch to the office of research here on campus, that there needed to be another book.Most teachers thought so. As I mentioned in the article, he took a lot of direction from Ward Roylance’s, I think, master’s thesis that he wrote at the University of Utah. And he came to the conclusion that teachers needed a new history textbook.

JR: Yeah, yeah.Okay.So in 1972 at the time of the textbook’s publication or around that same time Ellsworth became editor of the Western Historical Quarterly. Can you walk us through that process?How was it that Ellsworth was involved in the process of bringing the Western Historical Quarterly to Logan, Utah—to Utah State University?

RP: Well, I think there was a proposal sent out by the Western History Association looking for a home for the Quarterly and Ellsworth and Leonard Arrington and others on campus were involved in that.Ellsworth took the lead.There was no question about that.And I think this begins in about 1968. And at the time the Chase administration was nearing the end of its tenure here and they were not very receptive to the idea.And so when the new administration comes in of Glen Taggert, they pitch again to Taggert and to Garth Hansen, the provost, and they’re more receptive and agree to support the Quarterly with office space and staff and also to give Ellsworth and Arrington release time from their teaching responsibilities to be editor and coeditor. I think Ellsworth always recognized that he was not as well known as Leonard because he had published so much (even though [Arrington] was not a historian per se—he was an economist—but he had published widely on the economic history in the Mountain West and Utah.) And so he was better known, so Leonard became the editor first until he left [to become LDS Church Historian], and then George moved into that slot.

JR: So by 1969 it was approved that the Quarterly would be housed here in Logan and for several years Arrington was head editor with Ellsworth as associate editor and then he became—

RP: And then he became coeditor.I don’t know exactly how that worked but he was associate editor. But George was really a workaholic.I mean there’s no question about that, and he did the bulk of the work in the Quarterly, the editing and everything.If you go back and look at his papers, you’ll see he was a draftsman as well.And so he was very—I mean he designed the cover, what it would look like and the lettering and I mean he had it all planned out.Planning was his thing. And he kept all that stuff by the way.Every little note that he took on the founding of the Quarterly—he kept all of that stuff.

JR: Interesting.Maybe you can talk to us a little bit about—what I find really interesting in your article and with speaking with others about Ellsworth and reading Leonard Arrington’s autobiography, as well as the biography written by Gary Topping, is this kind of very collegial yet strained relationship between the two men, Ellsworth and Arrington. Of course, they worked together on the Western Historical Quarterly.Can you talk to us a little bit how the two men’s approach to history deferred and maybe coincided?I mean, how did Ellsworth’s approach to scholarship and publishing differ from Arrington’s, for example?

RP: Oh, 359 degrees.George had particular things that he laid claim to and things that he worked on from the time he got here until they were eventually published sometime between about 1987 until his death.The Addison Pratt stuff, Samuel Claridge stuff and not to discount Leonard at all, but Leonard was more scatter gun in his approach to what he researched and wrote and put his name on. And he was also very much involved in getting little chunks of money here and there and putting students to work on projects and usually Leonard’s name went on finished products, along with the student’s name. He was always giving credit where it was due, but he was always out there.He referred to himself as an entrepreneurial historian. Leonard did. He was always out there looking for little projects that he could do and he could put students to work on.He was just very active like that. George, on the other hand, was a loner.That’s how he did [his work].As far as I know, until later on, he did not collaborate much with anyone on his projects.

JR: You provided me a copy of Leonard Arrington’s diary dated March 22, 1973, and in it he talks about sort of the establishing of the WHQ at USU, and he mentions that Arrington was instrumental in helping Ellsworth become full editor of the Quarterly. But Arrington writes that in that change of editorship the only thing that “stung as far as I was concerned was George’s refusal to have me listed as a member of the Board of Editors of the Western Historical Quarterly. Why do you think that was?

RP: That whole episode with the Quarterly’s founding, with Leonard’s selection to be [LDS] Church Historian,I think it fractured the relationship between the two men.I can find no evidence that George ever said anything [about it]. But I think if you read that, you can get the idea that there was an estrangement there at that point in time between the two men. And before that, like you said, they were very close colleagues, and I think that Leonard acknowledges that George really helped him understand the difference between an economist and a historian.

JR: But you feel that that relationship was strained when Arrington was appointed as Church Historian.

RP: I don’t think Ellsworth held that against Leonard at all.I think he was happy for his friend. . . . Like I said, George never said much, you know, or at least he didn’t leave any paper trail. But I think if you look at what went on there [at the editorial office of WHQ], most of the work was done by George and most of the credit was given to Leonard.And so that strained the relationship.

JR: Interesting.You mention in your article this 1972 article published in the Utah Historical Quarterly in which Ellsworth sort of scans and surveys Utah historiography, Utah history. In it, he makes a couple of interesting comments and then talks about what yet needs to be done in the field.And one thing that I found really interesting that Ellsworth does is he decried scholars who rushed to publication, that present half-baked ideas and presents “his one idea in two or three forms and palms those variations off to editors.” Maybe he’s speaking of Arrington there?

RP: Well he could be speaking of two or three of his contemporaries there. But I wouldn’t want to speculate.

JR: Sure.But, you know, what he really seems to be doing in his article is calling for more contemplative, definitive productions. I mean, you’ve sort of mentioned that Ellsworth himself was sort of a perfectionist of sorts. What do you make of that comment of his comment in his article particularly in light of Ellsworth’s reputation as a careful but not particularly productive scholar?

RP: Well I think you could read it two ways.One is that he viewed some of his contemporary’s publications as less than contemplative.The other thing is maybe it’s apologetic for himself not being as productive as he should have been, because he was being careful and making sure everything was right before things were published. I don’t know.It’s hard to speculate, but I think there is some room to read between the lines on that.

JR: Well, another thing he mentions in his article is that “the queen of Utah history” is Juanita Brooks, but then he says “there is no king.”And is that just because there are too many hands, you know, in the honey jar, so to speak, or is he really making a larger comment on . . .

RP: He was gracious in what he said about all historians.But I think George had the idea early in his career that he would write that definitive history. And I think he hoped at the beginning of that would be the concurrent publication of a high school history text and a college history text and that then that research would then go into a major history of Utah. And, of course, it was something that he never did do, he never could do, and so, yeah, there’s no king that Ellsworth would crown.

JR: Well, maybe we can wrap this up by reflecting on Ellsworth’s place among Utah historians, his legacy is his contribution.I mean certainly a lot of years, 40 years has passed since his the seventh grade history textbook and that’s no longer really in use. And by and large he—let’s see he passed away in the ‘90s.

RP: ‘97

JR: ‘97. So it’s been almost twenty years since he passed away.How do you think it would be appropriate for folks to remember Ellsworth?Is he a figure of worth remembering?

RP: Oh yeah.

JR: What kind of a contribution did he make, then, to the state of Utah?

RP: Well I think Ellsworth trained a whole generation of history scholars that worked under him.They worked under Leonard as well.Tom Alexander for one. And I think his major contribution is as a teacher.I really do.And a lot of people that got graduate degrees here went on to do things in the field of history, but they also received a great education.

JR: Are there any Ellsworth stories that you came across in your research that maybe you’d like to share but maybe didn’t make it into your article?

RP: I don’t think I have any that I would like to share.It could be, from what I understand—he had a tendency to shoot from the lip on occasion.But you’ll never find any nasty letters in George’s correspondence. So what he may have said in private to somebody, he would never put that in writing. So, as I said, I did not know the man well.There’s a lot of people that did and a lot of people that I showed this article to before I sent it in to you guys.They told me stories about George, you know.

JR: Yeah.

RP: But he was very gracious when he turned his material over to us.

JR: So all the material or the George Ellsworth Papers are housed here in special collections here at USU?

RP: They are.Some of the primary documents he felt would be better at the LDS Church Archives, but all of those things there are copies in this collection. Some of the journals and the stuff that he worked on are with the church because they dealt with Mormon missionaries and establishing of missions in the South Seas.

JR: Well, thank you for taking the time to—

RP: Well I hope I’ve said something that’s enjoyable.

JR: And thank you, too, for your delightful little piece that’s published in the recent issue of the Quarterly.

RP: You know, I think there’s a lot of historians in Utah that probably deserve a similar little piece that may not have the appeal of a Leonard Arrington or a Juanita Brooks or others that have had major biographies done of them, but they all played a very big role in their institutions themselves. So maybe somebody that knows some of these other people [will] contribute another article on them.

JR: I hope so.

RP: Yeah.

JR: All right, well thank you.

RP: Thank you, appreciate it.